Whiskybase
Badge

Whisky talk

Everything about whiskies

Bring back Paxarette!

FineSpirits_butler1
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 10:54 am

After having tasted several Whiskies from the 60s until today, I really think that the missing Paxarette-influence is one big part of the quality-shrinkage of the Sherried Whiskies from today ...


It is really seldom to me that modern malts can match up the quality from the old bottles.
They should not be copies of the 'old' ones - but they should have a proper quality level ...
To me - if I knew only today's bottlings, I wouldn't be a Whisky drinker.


It is time to lift the ban of Paxarette!


What do you think? =)

  Edited on 24-01-2016 at 10:57 am
lincolnimp
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 11:08 am

I to have had plenty of old whisky from the 1960's and 1970,s some older

Yes I think  Pajarette (that is how i know it) was a good way of imparting extra flavour, especially to a tired cask but how does anyone know that the old whisky we have both tried was as a result of whisky aged in a cask like this.
I do not know how widespread the practice used to be.

What I do know is that even standard 10 and 12 year malts from the 1970's are way better than what is produced now. 
  Edited on 24-01-2016 at 11:09 am
FineSpirits_butler1
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 11:39 am

Yes!


And yes, I also cannot tell for sure ... but I experience some kind of 'old' fruit sweetness ...
A sweetness that is interwoven IN the cask, not superficial.
For example after swirling the glas - the jams come out within the whole Whisky contributing to a complete roundness.
And it is not only a matter of complexity. Many 'old' young Whiskies are simple but also round, not 'sharp' ...
(Certainly also other factors play a role for sure like the barley used, wood quality itself etc.)

I thought of making shirts with the imprint: 'Bring back Paxarette!' (or 'Pajarette'?)  =)



Armin Fuchs
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 12:14 pm

Yes: it's a pity that they did forbid Paxarette !!!

You can see (and taste!) it for example comparing the pre- & after Paxarette matured Macallan's and HP's !!!
I love the old style drams of these distilleries and I cannot enjoy the modern ones.

You speak about roundness and interwoven sweetness: that's the point.
And also the darker fruit flavours and the spices were much more aromatic at that times …
… and the kind of complexity that results …

I don't believe that Paxarette is as harmful for the health as they say!
There are much more harmful substances in our world today -
so yes:

BRING BACK PAXARETTE !!!

Whisky Hamster
Member Senior Senior Member
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 16:43 pm

I could imagine that with the use of proper old sherry butts you still get a great taste today.

Unfortunately today's sherry cask shortness does mean that there are fewer good ones available and this shows.

Maybe it's old news to you, but I was a bit shocked when during the Lagavulin warehouse tour two years ago I learned that they don't actually use former sherry barrels for second maturation, but PX-sherry-treat their casks for e.g. the distiller's edition. So in light of mediocre sherry casks/cheap sherry treatment I guess I would at least like to compare modern results with paxarette to see which is superior. happy

  Edited on 24-01-2016 at 16:46 pm
Oh Laphroaig, where art thou?
St. Pauli
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 17:45 pm

I could imagine that with the use of proper old sherry butts you still get a great taste today.

Unfortunately today's sherry cask shortness does mean that there are fewer good ones available and this shows.

Maybe it's old news to you, but I was a bit shocked when during the Lagavulin warehouse tour two years ago I learned that they don't actually use former sherry barrels for second maturation, but PX-sherry-treat their casks for e.g. the distiller's edition. So in light of mediocre sherry casks/cheap sherry treatment I guess I would at least like to compare modern results with paxarette to see which is superior. happy



Could be very true. Take eg the Glengoyne 25 yo, which is superb and tastes like "old sherrry cask matured". However it comes with a price...

peatbogger
Specialist Specialist
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 18:01 pm
Armin Fuchs wrote:

I don't believe that Paxarette is as harmful for the health as they say!



Paxarette used to be drunk by the barrel loads as a sherry, and is still being made/sold.
Do you have any reference to the healt issues?
Here's a very informative article, that at the end questions the reasons for banning or if it actually is banned at all in whisky production.

If Lagavulin "refurbish" casks with PX for 6 weeks, I can't see any differnce, apart from Paxarette being more concentrated and applied under preasure.
alectron
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 24-01-2016 at 21:39 pm

After having tasted several Whiskies from the 60s until today, I really think that the missing Paxarette-influence is one big part of the quality-shrinkage of the Sherried Whiskies from today ...


Paxarette did play a part in a lot of bottles from the past, that is true I think... but on the grand scheme of things, it's a very small factor imo.

Take these 2 major things into account:

- even bourbon matured whiskies from the 60s & 70s are far superior to their post-80s counterparts (not a hard and fast rule - some distilleries have indeed become better of late than their old counterpart... but if compared, the modern ones have gone from bad to good, but never reached the heights of the 60s/70s glory... but I disgress). The essence of this is - the base material, i.e. the distillate (other factors in my book are own floor maltings (bu hand), own mash-bill, own/old yeasts, own/old grains, longer fermentation times, etc pp) is much more important than the modern mantra 'The cask makes 80% of the quality of a whisky' allows [casks are important, but as is the spirit, and how you produce it - which is industrialized (for yield over flavour), neglected & forgotten about imo... there is some new/artisan distillers who try to work exactly that angle, and I am very curious what they achieve once their casks are 5-10 years old...]

- and secondly, the sherry industry/casks have changed in a major way... i.e. the glorious sherry casks of old, in many cases, were real sherry casks. i,e, casks that held good sherry for a long amount of time (these were then used to be re-pressurized with Paxarette to 'finish' a weaker whisky...)... nowadays, most 'sherry' casks are rejuvenated with sherry of un-drinkable quality which is made into vinegar afterwards or discarded (afaik...). Go figure...

Also, no one is stopping a whisky producer to re-introduce Paxarette... they just can't call the result in the bottle whisky... (afaik, don't hold me accountable.. :D)
But, if you convince someone of your rather strong stand-poin, and you are able to prove it by producing a whisky with a Paxarette-pressure-cooked cask that reaches 70s Macallan quality... then you could retire as a millionaire within a few years as it would sell like hot cakes...

Churs.
c.

ps. Also, the whiskyscience article suggests the same through a quote at the end (i.e. that Paxarette alone does not impart the depth & complexity we associate with good sherry whisky from the olden times...):

"Philip Hills wrote in 2000: "wine-treatment of worn-out casks has been widely used to simulate the effects of new sherry wood... a sweet dark sherry such as pedro ximenes [sic] is introduced and the cask is pressurised in order to force the potion into the wood. For many years, a potion called paxarette was used, which combined sweet dark sherry with other flavourings and colourants... the results are not impressive: whisky from a treated cask of this sort smells slightly sulphurous and sweet, but that is all. Of the lovely aromatic flavours of a true sherry-cask maturation, there is no trace."."

  Edited on 24-01-2016 at 22:00 pm
Remember - whisky scores and impressions are highly subjective and situational by nature - so don't go and buy whisky according to someone else's taste...
mrgood
Expert Junior Junior Expert
Posted on 25-01-2016 at 16:26 pm
alectron wrote:

...But, if you convince someone of your rather strong stand-poin, and you are able to prove it by producing a whisky with a Paxarette-pressure-cooked cask that reaches 70s Macallan quality... then you could retire as a millionaire within a few years as it would sell like hot cakes...

Call John Glaser.  He's one who's always willing to risk an unorthodox production technique if it will make for a quality result, even if it means having to call the whisky a "spirit" on the label.

Armin Fuchs
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 26-01-2016 at 11:08 am

Well - you all are right with the cask quality!

For me 'BRING BACK PAXARETTE' is a synonym and a invocation to the Whisky industry
to produce again the best quality and not the greatest amount of liters !!!
That encloses all: the wood, the Sherry, the time, the materials, the ingredients etc.

So: BRING BACK PAXARETTE !!!

happy

P.S.: I would like to order 6 T-Shirts in XL  (white, black and blue).
lincolnimp
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 26-01-2016 at 14:15 pm
If you wear that on a T-shirt most people will think you are on about a pop band, (Roxette ),
I doubt most people will ever have heard of it.
karloff
Specialist Specialist
Posted on 26-01-2016 at 14:27 pm
lincolnimp wrote:
If you wear that on a T-shirt most people will think you are on about a pop band, (Roxette ),
I doubt most people will ever have heard of it.



Worse,sounds more like a venereal disease" I've got a dose of Paxarette" happy

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. Tom Waits
mrgood
Expert Junior Junior Expert
Posted on 26-01-2016 at 16:42 pm
karloff wrote:
lincolnimp wrote:
If you wear that on a T-shirt most people will think you are on about a pop band, (Roxette ),
I doubt most people will ever have heard of it.

Worse,sounds more like a venereal disease" I've got a dose of Paxarette" happy

Ha ha!  "Why, is red pee bad?"


Side note: it turns out Roxette are still performing together.  The Joyride continues, apparently
lincolnimp
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 26-01-2016 at 18:04 pm
mrgood wrote:
karloff wrote:
lincolnimp wrote:
If you wear that on a T-shirt most people will think you are on about a pop band, (Roxette ),
I doubt most people will ever have heard of it.

Worse,sounds more like a venereal disease" I've got a dose of Paxarette" happy

Ha ha!  "Why, is red pee bad?"


Side note: it turns out Roxette are still performing together.  The Joyride continues, apparently


It is always reassuring to know that no matter what the subject matter is Karloff can get it right back down to basics happy

 Anyway that's where Karloff got his dose of Paxarette from, that was after a joyride down on Roker Seafront. wink

     



  Edited on 26-01-2016 at 18:10 pm
BenNevis
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 26-01-2016 at 20:30 pm

I think there are a few factors why the quality of standard bottlings are lower then they were. For a start whisky barrels stored in a giant palletised warehouse has got to have a different affect on them. And the fact that there is less old stock now then there was in the 70s and 80s in warehouses, There was no telling the age of some of the casks that were going into a 10 year old back then. Distilleries keep telling us they are using the best casks they can get now but were they 10-20 years ago?

Signature Picture
FineSpirits_butler1
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 31-01-2016 at 11:32 am

Thank you for the posts.


Sometimes I wonder that only rarely is spoken of the heavy shrinkage of quality in Whisky, or is it?
But luckily there are auctions where one can find nice medicine. =)
lincolnimp
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 31-01-2016 at 11:36 am

Thank you for the posts.


Sometimes I wonder that only rarely is spoken of the heavy shrinkage of quality in Whisky, or is it?
But luckily there are auctions where one can find nice medicine. =)


No FSB  the perceived fall in quality of spirit and casks is well documented, that is why even for standard 10 and 12 year single malts I try and get them from the 1970`s and 1980`s, I feel the quality of standard offerings from that period is much better.
I wonder if whisky distilled now will ever be able to reach over 25-30 years of age in some of the casks available now?



BenNevis
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 31-01-2016 at 16:29 pm

I was very disappointed when Macallan bought the NAS Gold out, I had tried it a few times and at best thought it was average. I got a bottle for Christmas this year and opened it the other night, (mostly for the wife to keep her of my good stuff  wink . I have has a tot every night and have to say I am really enjoying it. Are the batches getting better or is it me happy

Signature Picture
lincolnimp
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 31-01-2016 at 17:23 pm
BenNevis wrote:

I was very disappointed when Macallan bought the NAS Gold out, I had tried it a few times and at best thought it was average. I got a bottle for Christmas this year and opened it the other night, (mostly for the wife to keep her of my good stuff  wink . I have has a tot every night and have to say I am really enjoying it. Are the batches getting better or is it me happy


It`s you, you are easily pleased. wink



mrgood
Expert Junior Junior Expert
Posted on 31-01-2016 at 19:49 pm
BenNevis wrote:

I was very disappointed when Macallan bought the NAS Gold out, I had tried it a few times and at best thought it was average. I got a bottle for Christmas this year and opened it the other night, (mostly for the wife to keep her of my good stuff  wink . I have has a tot every night and have to say I am really enjoying it. Are the batches getting better or is it me happy

I was so against the mere idea of their whole colour-equals-quality premise that I boycotted all of the Macallan darker-is-better bottles.  Then last week a friend brought the Gold over, so I gave it a go.  I found it very underwhelming, but was that my bias coming through?  In any case, he gave me a splash of the Mac, and I gave him a bit of Glendronach (and a young one at that).  Guess who walk away the more impressed?

pieters87
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 25-06-2019 at 09:43 am

Old topic, but are there any bottles where we are certain of the use of paxarette? Maybe from the mideighties. Wanting to do a tasting experiment!

karloff
Specialist Specialist
Posted on 01-07-2019 at 13:31 pm

https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/ask-the-professor/26246/the-history-of-paxarette-and-scotch-whisky/

Here is an interesting article about it. 

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. Tom Waits
lincolnimp
Connoisseur Connoisseur
Posted on 02-07-2019 at 13:04 pm

karloff wrote:

https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/ask-the-professor/26246/the-history-of-paxarette-and-scotch-whisky/

Here is an interesting article about it. 


That is a really interesting article Karloff and makes you wonder how many of the so called great sherry monsters we see had pax in them like Glenfarclas & Glendronach?

They should bring it back , it may just put a bit of flavour in some of those crappy nas releases, you never know?


VaryingViewpoint
Expert Senior Senior Expert
Posted on 02-07-2019 at 15:55 pm

lincolnimp wrote:

karloff wrote:

https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/ask-the-professor/26246/the-history-of-paxarette-and-scotch-whisky/

Here is an interesting article about it. 


That is a really interesting article Karloff and makes you wonder how many of the so called great sherry monsters we see had pax in them like Glenfarclas & Glendronach?

They should bring it back , it may just put a bit of flavour in some of those crappy nas releases, you never know?


Will never happen. It's not needed for the overpriced NAS and most age statement releases of today to sell out. As drinkers are willing to pay double retail to drink Spiked-Kool-Aid. 

  Edited on 03-07-2019 at 02:05 am
One life... Drink it well
wataya
Expert Junior Junior Expert
Posted on 05-07-2019 at 14:39 pm

karloff wrote:

lincolnimp wrote:

If you wear that on a T-shirt most people will think you are on about a pop band, (Roxette ),

I doubt most people will ever have heard of it.



Worse,sounds more like a venereal disease" I've got a dose of Paxarette" happy


lolwink

  Edited on 05-07-2019 at 14:39 pm
You need to join this group before you can add a reply

Whiskybase

Whiskybase is founded in 2007 with the goal to create the biggest resource of whisky information in the world. A community driven website built by and for whisky enthusiasts.  




Whiskybase B.V. 
Zwaanshals 530 
3035 KS Rotterdam 
The Netherlands 

KVK: 52072819
VAT: NL850288836B01

Copyright © 2018


Forgot your password?

Login